00:00:00: Architecture Talks, the podcast about architecture from Jung.
00:00:06: Barcelona
00:00:07: or North?
00:00:08: Barcelona.
00:00:09: Competition or trust?
00:00:11: Trust!
00:00:13: Present of future?
00:00:15: Both!
00:00:16: La Buixiaire is a small town in Brittany and France home to just over five thousand people.
00:00:23: yet it's also home-to building that has recently attracted attention across Europe The Josephine Baker, Marie-Josée Pérec Sports and Cultural Centre designed by ONCEZÉROGATRE.
00:00:38: At first glance it's a sports hall but in reality is much more than that!
00:00:44: It's place for regional competitions dance local clubs children neighbors & community life And brings together existing sport facilities like tennis courts, the stadium and cultural centre into one coherent public space.
00:01:02: Wrapped in a translucent textile façade it fills with daylight during day and glows like lanterns after dark.
00:01:11: In twenty-twenty six The project was shortlisted for the European Union Prize for Contemporary Architecture, the Mies van der Rohe Award becoming of five finalists.
00:01:25: So suddenly a sports and cultural centre in small French town was standing alongside some of Europe's most celebrated architectural projects.
00:01:36: That is the perfect reason why we invited you, Gustavo from En Zero Gâtres to The Young Talks podcast with me, Diane & Nathalie Giraud Today will talk about a sports hall that became a civic landmark – about European recognition architectural culture between France and Spain, and why good architecture requires much more than simply having a good idea.
00:02:05: Hello Gustavo!
00:02:06: And welcome to today's Young Talks podcast – it is great to have you with us !
00:02:12: Many of our listeners may not know on Zerocat yet so let start the project itself.
00:02:21: Imagine we are arriving together in La Bouéxière.
00:02:25: Where are we?
00:02:26: What do you see and what kind of place is it?
00:02:30: the Boexia is a very small town.
00:02:32: It's close to the capital of Brittany, that's Rennes.
00:02:36: So there're lots people working in Rennes and living here And I was explaining just before The small towns in Brittany or France.
00:02:51: they aren't urban planning.
00:02:53: so when you arrive at Boixier You can see the very nice historical center with the church, with John Hall and one school public schools.
00:03:03: And then you see a lot of small neighborhoods of detached houses.
00:03:09: that is very particular.
00:03:11: in France.
00:03:12: The houses are detached.
00:03:13: I mean you have an isolated house In the middle of a plot But it's unique in Europe.
00:03:20: It's based on culture from United States.
00:03:24: The problem is that all these plannings made only via private initiative, the constructors we call it in France.
00:03:33: The construction of single houses and they make public spaces on streets.
00:03:41: but this neighborhood are completely disconnected between each other also disconnected with the center and disconnected with the equipments.
00:03:52: So when we started working in the competition for this cultural and sports center, We have a few existing buildings around that plot For this competition.
00:04:05: so it was a social Center.
00:04:07: very small social center Was an sportive center also Very limited in use but just close to the parcel and you have a stadium or football, you have tennis court.
00:04:22: And it was a bit around our plot.
00:04:25: It also was a urban planning that talks about creating a path connecting one of these neighbourhoods to another.
00:04:35: but the path is at south of our plot where nothing happens.
00:04:40: in this house there are no neighbourhoods.
00:04:43: so what we made first?
00:04:45: decision for competition to move this path through the center of our plot.
00:04:51: We say that we connect the existing equipments with the existing neighborhood at the east of the plot, so we make a project and cut it into two volumes And the path grows our project and connects everything.
00:05:19: With a hope of this kind of future, I mean be the base for public conception... ...and connection with the town, with the neighbourhoods….
00:05:32: …and this place that is going to be the catalysation or the public equipment of La Boexia.
00:05:40: We didn't have the budget for the urban spaces But we make a very small space that connects in an intimate way all the equipments, but you can easily create new access to connect with the center of the town.
00:05:57: If I understand correctly this was not part of the original brief?
00:06:02: No!
00:06:03: You decided it like this...
00:06:06: Of course because i just studied in Barcelona and first reflection is a urban conception In a context, we arrive to our site and look at what happens in terms of social connections, urbanism.
00:06:23: We try to generate public spaces.
00:06:26: with the public building you have two general public spaces that doesn't exist before your eyes.
00:06:32: Every time there is competition here in France... ...we follow this process.
00:06:37: We make schools at Bordeaux.
00:06:40: We create an interior path Coating into two volumes the school.
00:06:46: It was a public path in the middle.
00:06:48: We won a competition in Lorion.
00:06:51: that it's in Brittany also, but more than west.
00:06:55: and we create very small Public space connecting to neighborhoods of single houses And our building was in the Middle.
00:07:05: so generates new connections with territory.
00:07:10: Seems to be like a concept within your office, no?
00:07:14: Yeah it's kind of obsession.
00:07:18: Looking at the building... The first thing that catches your eye is the striking white textile roof with its four expressive peaks.
00:07:29: Yet this isn't just a sculptural gesture.
00:07:33: It also forms part of the environmental strategy providing natural ventilation and passive cooling.
00:07:41: How do you find the balance between creating a strong architectural image, solving very practical problems?
00:07:51: The decision to make in a kind of textile roof was a demand for the town hall.
00:07:57: The competition asked us to build this material because there are some companies at the region that they use this kind of system, textile buildings.
00:08:11: It's not cheaper but it is faster and very light.
00:08:15: so there could be temporary installations.
00:08:19: And its' not a tradition but exists.
00:08:22: So was good idea to use these materials.
00:08:27: When they announced we were part of the three finalists for competition We are surprised because didn't know before Being finalists, you don't have the information.
00:08:38: So that first reflex we made is to say what's a problem with this kind of textile architecture?
00:08:45: That it isn't heated or insulated... You can heat them but they're not very clever!
00:08:53: The problem is not winter because there are lots of sports where you can make them in winter.
00:08:58: It's a very template-climating voice here between five and twenty-five degrees
00:09:06: during the winter, but that sounds comfortable.
00:09:09: I know it's very comfortable!
00:09:11: So we said okay... The problem is not in Winter and the problem is in Summer.
00:09:16: In Summer there are structures where they're very hot because you accumulate sunlight at the interior.
00:09:25: Normally there were very low structure so it was very hot on the interior.
00:09:33: higher building to provide a lot of volume in the kind of natural ventilation that we used.
00:09:40: To make all our buildings, okay?
00:09:42: We use always to make natural ventilation even if it's an office building for example or its school...we always try to make a natural ventilation.
00:09:53: so react at the same way.
00:09:57: and then we have this question because textile building, it has to respect kind of double curvature form.
00:10:08: So was also very intuitive way of thinking.
00:10:12: I mean the first sketches were made in three days four days no more.
00:10:16: so what are they basic sketches?
00:10:19: What's a reflection about their structure.
00:10:20: and this structure for us was very logical To do is a kind of caten.
00:10:26: you know You have a cable between two points and the shape that we're going to construct, to generate this catenary is a normal physical form.
00:10:37: It's their form with maximum tension of all points.
00:10:41: so if you saw it can make something like that.
00:10:44: And thats why there are four very high points.
00:10:49: The highest point is at twenty eight meters and lowest one is at thirty three meters.
00:10:53: Then when we won our competition with cable scores, because it's another kind of construction here in France.
00:11:03: So we changed to a good structure.
00:11:07: that was very nice decision I think which is its light structure but defines the building.
00:11:15: so after it was realized The nomination for EU MIS award came out.
00:11:22: more than four hundred nominated projects.
00:11:25: only forty made the shortlist and then five became finalists.
00:11:31: And what was very obvious this year that was really interesting, there were so many French projects within the nomination list.
00:11:42: I think it was like more than forty projects nominated... Your Sports Centre is one of them!
00:11:48: So when people think about these major architectural awards they often imagine museums, opera houses or iconic cultural buildings.
00:11:59: And your project is a sports and cultural centre in a very small town!
00:12:04: So what does that tell us about architecture today?
00:12:07: What do you think?
00:12:09: The first thing I've agreed with you it's the first time there are more French architects than other countries at Mies van der Rohe price.
00:12:17: They lived here in France for fifteen years... ...and they see an evolution of young people coming now.
00:12:24: There is a lot of quality, reflection and construction.
00:12:30: So I'm very happy about that!
00:12:33: The other thing if you see all the finalists... All projects are quite normal with low budget.
00:12:42: That speaks for everyone.
00:12:46: Architecture has nothing to do with budgets or importance in building.
00:12:51: in terms of size, materials as to be of how architecture could manage the future for their use.
00:13:03: How building you are going to build in twenty-five years will be used in forty or fifty years?
00:13:11: And this is a point if we see all projects of the Mies towards these year.
00:13:17: they're kind of polyvalent project that they have a strong reflection about urbanism, of our context.
00:13:25: About the kind of economy of materials and conception.
00:13:30: also there are very developed conceptions on how to use it in an ecological way.
00:13:39: I mean construction material but also things like heating ventilation all these kinds of things that are very present today and it's urgent to work about.
00:13:51: I was listening to a lecture from an architect, from Bangkok who was mentioning one phrase in his presentation, architecture matters but humans matter more?
00:14:03: Yeah!
00:14:04: Of course!
00:14:07: That explains also the nominated project within the EU MIS award.
00:14:13: No, but that is clear.
00:14:15: Our building is cut into two buildings.
00:14:19: A very small and heated, well-isolated with a lot of inner sea and heated building.
00:14:25: You have all the dressing rooms you've got all the services... ...you have the dance room etc.
00:14:31: And then there's this huge space that isn't heated.
00:14:34: You can heat it at twelve maximum for special competitions For example in judo or badminton But we are going to use without heating.
00:14:45: The point is, I mean today in two thousand and twenty six.
00:14:50: Do we need to hit the spaces or do you think it's the bodies?
00:14:56: I mean why in Europe living in the north of Europe are in the south of Europe We have to live always between twenty and twenty-two degrees know this space we inhabit.
00:15:11: that's no sense.
00:15:12: And we see now these very hot here In France, also in Spain.
00:15:17: Today we start at the office and for last three weeks our bodies started to be used.
00:15:25: that I mean you can work or sleep now not first week but know it.
00:15:31: so with winter is the same thing.
00:15:33: You make sport without any kind of problem at ten degrees.
00:15:37: at seven degrees I mean tennis everywhere at the exterior football.
00:15:44: Why make a very isolated building when you can make a really light structure?
00:15:51: I mean, the waste of normal buildings is thirty kilo per meter.
00:15:57: Our buildings are five kilos per meter so there's less material and less foundations which is very ecological.
00:16:04: Also it's kind of temporality architecture.
00:16:08: What's the temporality on architecture?
00:16:11: One day we decide to dismount this building and there is not going to have a fingerprint on the side.
00:16:18: But you can move it, for example no?
00:16:20: You can go everywhere!
00:16:22: And also just to say one small thing we had kind of reference in mind was Al in France but also in Brittany.
00:16:30: The Al was from very small towns like La Boixière or many others.
00:16:36: that they were now enough money to build public buildings.
00:16:41: a very high roof to allow kind of natural ventilation.
00:16:47: and then you have the markets, public markets.
00:16:50: You had traditional dance days, meetings at the town hall meant that justices were there.
00:16:59: it's only kind of a roof with no facade.
00:17:02: everything is open And here in Brittany most of them were demolished but you can still see four, five or six incredible installations.
00:17:16: So our idea of the building was very open-building to take cover.
00:17:22: it protects from rain and sun.
00:17:26: You make different things on this building not only sports nor culture.
00:17:33: But you can dance, make concerts.
00:17:35: It's close to rent so that you could also have a seminar and contests.
00:17:40: I know in the world of football they project matches at the building for example.
00:17:46: So it is kind of very social space not built into spaces.
00:17:51: So Gustavo?
00:17:52: You grew up in Spain but been living or working in France For many years.
00:17:57: During our previous conversation, you mentioned that Barcelona still forms an important part of your architectural identity.
00:18:06: Why has it remained so important to you?
00:18:10: Well...you know I mean It's my city Barcelona.
00:18:13: So i spent my forty first years there and its a very human city with scale That is very human.
00:18:21: You can do everything in public transport made by foot.
00:18:24: You can cross all the cities in twenty minutes just walking, so kind of living.
00:18:30: in terms of scale and climate Barcelona for me was a perfect city to live.
00:18:37: And then it brings you the culture of public space, Barcelona.
00:18:42: like an inhabitant of this city The culture of the public spaces is very important.
00:18:51: You are always at the exterior everywhere Public spaces that connect with the other public space, you can walk through the city and use it in a very different way all year.
00:19:05: Also I studied at Barcelona.
00:19:07: so this kind of culture that you feel when your kid or when you are adolescent then you study at university.
00:19:15: also there's a strong tradition for public spaces contextual conception And this is always my first reflection, contextual and urban reflection.
00:19:30: Then we go on to the other things.
00:19:34: but you didn't see these kinds of reflections before in other countries as very clear and strong positions.
00:19:43: If he takes Barcelona or France would say that architecture was discussed more publicly in Barcelona or France?
00:19:53: Because we were talking about this competition situation, the difference between Spain and France.
00:19:59: So do you think that like the Catalans are a little bit more sensitive with architecture?
00:20:07: Catalan architects who studied at public universities in Barcelona.
00:20:13: they have very strong cultural architecture In terms of theoretical architecture but also with the practice of architecture.
00:20:22: When I was a student, and worked in an office for another architect all year long at school after the afternoon you go to make some practices within an architect so that you really have the kind of theoretical part on your school of architecture And then there is practical parts at offices.
00:20:42: It's very normal.
00:20:44: So, you also use the tradition of all the Catalan architects called... etc.
00:20:51: that is very strong in their formation at school.
00:20:54: It's a very cultivated conception of architecture.
00:20:58: The level of the Catala Architects it's really high.
00:21:01: But I must say here in France i see things are changing for the last ten years and we can see they same thing arrives.
00:21:12: I mean, the people are very well-formatted and they're interested in the characteristics of the architecture but also on the construction systems.
00:21:20: Also in environment conception.
00:21:23: you see that young people just live at these schools have an energy.
00:21:29: it's important here.
00:21:30: now You can see there is me as van der Roijl all the French projects mostly young people with a lot of energy With a kind of optimism.
00:21:42: I didn't saw this kind of optimism like fifteen years ago, i see it now.
00:21:47: And This is very important!
00:21:49: You think this optimist has to be now.
00:21:51: the Catalan Architects also?
00:21:53: Kind of change.
00:21:55: two things The culture and the Optimism.
00:21:57: So
00:21:59: you think that Barcelona or Spain and France could just learn from each other.
00:22:05: Yeah yeah It's a case they are doing.
00:22:07: Now there are a lot of people from Barcelona that looking at the French architects used to be the opposite.
00:22:13: I mean, they're not a French architect's.
00:22:16: look in the Catalan architecture but you start seeing change now?
00:22:20: That is very important.
00:22:22: We were talking about one topic already Very passionately At The beginning Of our podcast.
00:22:29: we Were Talking About These Architectural Competitions.
00:22:31: So Let'S go To Maybe Broad A Question.
00:22:35: You were explaining already a little bit who gets the opportunity to build, but what has to be changed?
00:22:41: To give younger studios the possibility to be part of these competitions because they often are losing their chance as they cannot show up that there have been three schools or five museums before.
00:22:58: So would you ask the public and people like naming the competition to be a little bit more brave and open it up also to younger studios?
00:23:10: Yeah, I think for me is very simple.
00:23:12: It's about the qualification of the jury.
00:23:15: so i think you have to open the competitions...it happens in Barcelona now its kind of mixed!
00:23:22: Its an open competition but you have demonstrate only with papers not pictures that you had experience do make those kinds surface or coast.
00:23:36: So you need to have one or two buildings made with this kind of object, or a surface or program and then it's an open competition.
00:23:46: You send your proposal To a jury that is very well qualified And for me This kind of combination It's very good because young architects Have some experience always.
00:24:00: I mean, they start with small houses very small renovation of public building and so on.
00:24:07: So when you can apply to a lot of competitions in Spain They ask you to demonstrate that but also are open In France.
00:24:15: i think would be great.
00:24:17: the first thing for me It's kind of very qualified jury.
00:24:21: Very qualified.
00:24:22: it means That people who work at the program You're judging this is a point for me that is very important.
00:24:30: Very qualified jury, but it's able to choose the good architecture and then their young architects like in Spain can enter by the quality of their
00:24:41: work.".
00:24:42: I mean you told it before during these studies your learning theory at university as well as practical learning journey happening in different offices.
00:24:54: so even though they are young a lot of experience, no?
00:24:59: Yeah.
00:25:00: Of course!
00:25:00: And also in France we associate with other practices.
00:25:06: to have the reference was too late but it's very interesting that you work together and know how to work together with people who think differently than you do.
00:25:19: It is important for architecture as well.
00:25:22: Naturally this happens when competitions are open.
00:25:27: Why?
00:25:28: Because there is a lot of time to spend, make and competition.
00:25:32: So normally you use to share with some friends or other young architects And this is very good for both systems.
00:25:40: But I think the French system and Belgian system as well as German system has opened up to the young people.
00:25:47: but also not create specialized practices because i don't believe in specialized practice.
00:25:54: that's no sense.
00:25:55: It's architect, we are able to make a school and cultural center theater.
00:26:01: A hotel office whatever.
00:26:03: yeah that's what we learned from the very beginning no?
00:26:08: Yeah for me this is very important And I don't know why i have a conviction That more you are specialized in a thing worse architect You are!
00:26:19: I mean it kind of polemical thing but For Me its clear.
00:26:23: On your website Gustavo, architecture is described in surprisingly poetic terms.
00:26:29: so you write about light emptiness and silence.
00:26:31: And the moment when construction has finished a space is waiting to be inhabited.
00:26:39: What does that idea mean?
00:26:43: I always work like that.
00:26:45: Architecture is very complex practice.
00:26:48: what's dangerous?
00:26:50: today We have a climatic
00:26:53: emergency
00:26:54: that's clear.
00:26:54: So we have to choose the god solutions in terms of construction, in terms energy and so on.
00:27:01: but sometimes I think architects are losing the complexity of our practice And they see this very clearly.
00:27:13: In France there is no criticism of architecture.
00:27:17: That's missing.
00:27:17: in Germany also i can tell you.
00:27:20: I think it's missing almost everywhere.
00:27:23: No, not in Spain because all the books and reviews of architecture are read by architectures, by professionals, by architects that well-known have a reputation to make research etc... And here in France other reviews were made by journalists who specialized in architecture so they did great job on communication about what's happened today.
00:27:51: It is a kind of picture, the actuality at that moment.
00:27:54: The criticism in France.
00:27:56: it was like this... A picture on what happens now.
00:28:00: but the critique isn't a picture.
00:28:01: The critique has to be able to analyse everything and keep the complexity of architecture as a whole thing.
00:28:11: May I ask you your question?
00:28:13: How did the reaction of French architectural press on the announcement of you being one of the finalists.
00:28:23: It was zero!
00:28:25: Really?
00:28:25: Yeah, yeah we were published everywhere in Europe except in France.
00:28:32: No way!
00:28:33: Really?!
00:28:33: Yes
00:28:34: yes no it's incredible.
00:28:35: I mean i'm very surprised but i think our building is not a typical building.
00:28:40: its'not a building off-the-moment.
00:28:42: Its Not A Building That Is Making A Very clear, constructive environmental way in the terms of media.
00:28:50: Let's say it is not very well-isolated and everything isn't good or bad.
00:28:58: so we have a proposition that this is very uncomfortable if you are not ready to have some kind of criticism on these propositions as well.
00:29:10: As I understand our project has never been published France anywhere?
00:29:16: It's so interesting because Jung is also partnering with the D.A.M Award, which is an architectural award organized by the Architectural Museum in Frankfurt and it's focusing only on German architects.
00:29:30: let's say a German project And The Winner Project of this year, twenty-twenty six was a Center for Art & Urbanistic in Berlin And they were actually working on an existing building, just like adding few spaces that are needed but not too much.
00:29:50: Just in a way it's necessary to keep the building properly working.
00:29:56: and It was so funny because we had quite a few press articles That started discussing the decision of the jury from this award how they can name this as being a winner of, you know?
00:30:12: A big German architectural award.
00:30:15: Because for them... This is not aesthetic!
00:30:18: This isn't classical architecture so it has nothing to do with their idea or good architecture.
00:30:28: and that was interesting because really the first time since years now being critical with architecture in the press and media started again.
00:30:40: And now they're having different discussions, events where they start to discuss beauty of architecture what it is nowadays!
00:30:51: I think that's exactly you were talking about no?
00:30:55: Yeah completely for me very important to understand that architecture not only thinking how we are going build this building, the constructive season in terms of ecology.
00:31:07: Of fingerprint and so on but also aesthetics for example.
00:31:13: And there is a thing I really like with these buildings we made here.
00:31:18: We were published alot especially in Germany.
00:31:22: Some journalists talked about poetry from that building But i didn't talk about it.
00:31:32: For me poetry is part of the architecture.
00:31:35: But I don't say it, two or three different publications talk about poetry and they was very happy but in poetry its one thing that has to be on the table at a time we are working at office.
00:31:51: It's very important.
00:31:52: Yeah before i came too young have been working for two big German architectural magazines so...I know also in Germany like you said as in Spain It's mostly trained architects that are working there as editors and journalists.
00:32:08: So they know the profession, so... They got your idea even without you telling me!
00:32:15: You
00:32:17: were very happy?
00:32:19: That is fantastic.
00:32:20: I'm happy to hear it too.
00:32:22: Yeah
00:32:23: i think we're at a international price with this building in UK US Spain Germany and Switzerland, but not in France.
00:32:34: It's incredible!
00:32:35: That is interesting...
00:32:37: We have to change that.
00:32:40: French people are not that good.
00:32:42: They're
00:32:44: the same.
00:32:45: Maybe
00:32:45: they have their reasons?
00:32:48: No I don't think so….
00:32:49: I
00:32:50: think we know a lot about you Gustavo.
00:32:53: Just to conclude this podcast would like us one final personal question.
00:32:59: You know both Spain and France quite well, if you could
00:33:03: recommend
00:33:04: one architectural or perhaps cultural hidden gem in each country where should we go?
00:33:11: I mean yeah it's clear for me.
00:33:13: In France you have to visit the hall of all the small towns.
00:33:18: i mean this historical hall of the sixteenth century that you found close to Nantes, also you have one.
00:33:29: There
00:33:30: are so many!
00:33:31: We can learn a lot of things about climate-refuge relationship with the context and they use kind of polyvalon used extremely polyvalone in open use Of these structures not only buildings but structures And poetry Also.
00:33:51: So In France for me this is the point you have to visit the forgotten buildings of Enrique Miralles and Carma Pinos, of Tito Limpic.
00:34:05: All that... There were two incredible buildings.
00:34:10: One was destroyed And is destructed today It doesn't exist anymore.
00:34:15: Only pieces are accumulated in a very bad way but completely degradated.
00:34:20: The other building it's not in use.
00:34:25: We have to revise the work of medias, and we have to ask society how they can have very great buildings like these ones completely forgotten.
00:34:38: And turn into destruction!
00:34:41: We have rediscovered the work on centric medias.
00:34:44: That's a wonderful way.
00:34:47: end todays conversation.
00:34:48: Thank you so much for your time and sharing all thoughts with us.
00:34:55: So we'll stay curious to see how the architectural communication within the media in France will change.
00:35:02: Maybe we should send them a link to our conversation and they could rethink their work?
00:35:08: I would want to thank also everyone who is listening to us, and stay tuned for our next episode of The Jung Talks Podcast!