00:00:00: Architecture Talks, the podcast about architecture from Jung.
00:00:06: To build or to preserve?
00:00:09: I would say both because somehow it's the same action.
00:00:12: Ideal of reality?
00:00:14: I'd like my ideals to become real.
00:00:17: Individual team?
00:00:19: Architecture is definitely a teamwork!
00:00:23: What does this actually mean for design and new building today?
00:00:26: For Jean-Baptiste Friot – The answer begins with contradiction.
00:00:31: When reading about his EU MIS award project, one sentence immediately stands out.
00:00:37: Building can wait!
00:00:39: For him constructing a new building is no longer the default solution – quite the opposite.
00:00:45: Before building something new we should first ask whether an existing building could be reused, transformed or adapted?
00:00:54: And yet together with Bette Jo and Freiermuth's office crypto architects designed Le Forêt in La Jolle, a new public building bringing together music school and media library childcare facilities and community services.
00:01:10: An open-timbered structure designed to evolve expand and –in theory– even be completely dismantled and rebuilt elsewhere.
00:01:19: A building conceived not for single moment of time but change itself.
00:01:25: For this project, the team was selected as an emerging finalist for the European Union Prize for Contemporary Architecture – The Mies van der Rohe Award in twenty-twenty six.
00:01:37: But Jean Baptiste is less interested in finished building than conditions under which architecture is created.
00:01:45: In today's episode of our Young Talks podcast me, Diana Slavic and Nathalie Giraud speak with him about architecture without folklore about the honesty of building, a profession in transition and why sometimes the most important architectural decision is not to build at all.
00:02:07: First of all welcome!
00:02:10: It's a pleasure to have you with us.
00:02:12: before we talk about your EU MIS award nominated project I'd like to begin with sentences used during the EU MISS Award process.
00:02:22: Building can wait.
00:02:24: It almost sounds provocative, after all you are architects.
00:02:28: Why would an architect question the very act of building?
00:02:34: This sentence was written by my colleague and friend Rafael Betion which doesn't make it out-of-context for me.
00:02:41: I share with him this care about just a basic situation of European landscape.
00:02:46: let's say We already have a lot infrastructure as everybody can see a lot of buildings everywhere, and the economy of construction itself is too much based on fact to destroy or rebuild.
00:03:01: It works like big factory somehow that needs new stuff all time for an economical balance positive balance And this creates very big problem.
00:03:11: everybody knows today except people who really don't want face it which not even political problems anymore now becomes just a necological issue.
00:03:20: Thus, of course we as architects have to completely reorganize the way.
00:03:25: We think design process building process choice of materials.
00:03:31: everything has to be reorganized and actually I'm turning forty eight you know.
00:03:36: so i was educated in The Old Way with the stark text images And all this and we can see that time is finished.
00:03:45: You Know even though they are still Building thousands Of buildings All around the world we see their projects and they are all boring, you know?
00:03:53: We're just like asking ourselves when is this going to stop.
00:03:56: That's all!
00:03:57: This is connected with so many subjects but I could take one which is maintenance.
00:04:03: You can be fascinated by Manatan for example Like Remkulas was at the end of the twentieth century With his famous book.
00:04:10: But on the other hand...you have to face those glass facades reaching three hundred four hundred meters high And it feels as if where were we going.
00:04:19: What kind of future do we want?
00:04:21: Because this is connected to our work, our daily work.
00:04:25: This means that you need a daily work To maintain all these buildings something that has to be done by people or maybe in the future by machines I don't know but i don't believe in Technocial Uselessism.
00:04:36: So it's something That We face A little bit...we have Kind Of hangover as People.
00:04:42: Our age It's Something In between
00:04:46: I think we studied almost around The same time.
00:04:49: So I exactly know what you're talking about.
00:04:52: Nobody was talking about renovation, restoration whatever.
00:04:56: it was always about building something new not dealing with any existing building and then maybe giving it a new soul or just a new function.
00:05:07: What would be interesting for us is...what was the situation?
00:05:11: You found in Laiol?
00:05:14: Well, in Lyall the fact of building new or not was a question because the plot wasn't empty.
00:05:20: It's very small town with big village and very small towns.
00:05:23: One thousand two hundred inhabitants.
00:05:25: but it is a very rural area and Lyall has central game.
00:05:30: so the idea creating multi-purpose public facility I think was legitimate.
00:05:38: they did have an option for existing fabric.
00:05:42: this kind of facility isn't preexisting.
00:05:44: Here.
00:05:44: I had the sport hall, and of course a church.
00:05:47: And some private companies building... ...and small city halls with few very small rooms for public activities but nothing in proportion to what we were asked there.
00:06:00: The question was more like should do something that would have kind let's say local style or propose out of classical architectural regional contexts vernacular architecture, as we say architecture without architects.
00:06:17: Or to do something that would more face let's say the global context that we have to face now which is what we were talking about just before.
00:06:26: so we choose a second option and decided to some kind of machine with many characteristics inside proposing something off course that will be dismantled.
00:06:37: end on the other hand to propose some kind of easy maintenance and somehow we created some kinds objects that people were not expecting to find there, especially local people.
00:06:49: Inevitance!
00:06:50: So... We received many critics I think for that.
00:06:53: Critics are pretty understandable but on the other hand still within answer is correct.
00:06:59: There could be good answers But this answer means something.
00:07:05: As you said, you described the building as a system rather than an object.
00:07:10: Why was flexibility more important then symbolism?
00:07:16: We are in rural areas and we know that needs can evolve but people will do it on their own with their technical guys there or local companies.
00:07:27: they won't call us for changes.
00:07:30: They already did From the first day they arrived in their building, there were many changes that the jury saw.
00:07:35: The jury saw us when we came to visit.
00:07:38: it was pretty not always very comfortable as an architect but on the other hand It's very good.
00:07:44: this is connected with what I said before That we as architects have to change the way We think about our social role.
00:07:51: so To maintain a public facility is real topic today.
00:07:56: For example all cables and technical networks are visible.
00:08:01: It makes them also available very immediately.
00:08:04: So if you need another electrical plug somewhere, or a device to remove one and put it somewhere else... You cannot find the more easy way than we implemented this.
00:08:15: This is why I think that flexibility of building is good answer for the fact that it will evaluate.
00:08:21: For example electrician would come in with demand changing several things will not try to do something else than what we did, because the easiest way for him is going.
00:08:33: I think it's a very unusual construction of society that used to live in buildings where all electricity and everything was hidden behind walls... How would you get these critics from people?
00:08:52: You said they were understandable on one side But after being finalist for the EU MIS award, was that something having an impact also on the acceptance of your building within that region?
00:09:08: We did not have a possibility to talk again with clients since the EU-MIS awards.
00:09:14: They were already kind of surprised when we received Eckhart D'Argent in twenty four.
00:09:20: Well, it's true that to have this Eumita watch which is the price of the European Union.
00:09:25: You know?
00:09:25: It's not some private price.
00:09:28: I don't how its going change something...I guess so
00:09:31: Because my experience when you're finding these kind unusual architecture within a rural area.
00:09:38: there are usually criticism in advance people do not really properly understand why looks like and then when they realize that it's getting positive attention, either within the press or as you said receiving awards.
00:09:57: Then they slowly change and come to feel proud of their building And felt from very beginning something really special.
00:10:09: Their emotion between buildings is somehow changing.
00:10:16: I really don't know about this place and the people who live there.
00:10:19: They have some kind of pride, you know?
00:10:21: Of being in the middle of Massif Central And far from big cities, Rodez is more than one hour away From there at least an hour and it's a bigger city So i dont'know.
00:10:32: Do they think that EU price Is somehow an achievement or should they think That we do not need to be influenced by these European institutions?
00:10:40: It´s not easy to defend with our clients because they are expecting something for their community.
00:10:46: They're expecting some kind of symbol, and then get a machine...
00:10:50: But an interesting machine!
00:10:55: The best machine is the supermarket right?
00:10:57: I mean it's done on purpose which is just to store stuff that people will come to buy And its very efficiently done for single-purpose.
00:11:12: this building looks too much like a supermarket.
00:11:15: That's my explanation, nobody told me it was the supermarket.
00:11:18: but the supermarket of Lyell is pretty nearby
00:11:22: and you have been inspired by this one?
00:11:26: No!
00:11:28: The inspiration for the building is very basic.
00:11:30: we work with different teams.
00:11:32: We have to work together And not talk about aesthetic stuff Is good starting point.
00:11:39: Just get agreements on technical regards, that's a good start to have teamwork with people you are not used to work.
00:11:47: So the Start is the Plasterboard panel, the plasterboard dimensions... That is The Start for vertically or in living space, horizontally and technically.
00:12:02: And from this you get the size of everything because these panels they're available everywhere.
00:12:08: so we decided We know that partition walls will be done in these kind of facilities with the most available things.
00:12:16: With what people are used to work there, so we include their plaster walls and this is bringing all the rest.
00:12:23: And then we systematically try go for best solution technically and ecologically speaking.
00:12:31: That could fit our budget.
00:12:33: Do you think today public building should be prepared to accommodate completely different uses in the future?
00:12:42: Yes, this was done since beginning of architecture I think.
00:12:45: Since the beginning of construction.
00:12:47: so... Of course!
00:12:48: But it's not always the case.
00:12:51: You mean like that.
00:12:52: some buildings are easier to transform than others.
00:12:54: Yeah
00:12:56: And then i would immediately say we shouldn't build only Lajol everywhere because that would be really boring and not only a bore but also some kind of an aesthetical massacre, I would say.
00:13:08: Because... That's one answer!
00:13:11: And it is good answer, i think?
00:13:13: But should not be the only one to have flexibility.
00:13:16: you know for example like many of the Renaissance buildings or even before especially from the Renaissance very well done building with good materials for rich people powerful people or churches.
00:13:30: they can fit any kind of refurbishment without destroying them, but they are considered valuable.
00:13:37: Absolutely!
00:13:38: I mean going to the big cities in Europe.
00:13:41: where do you prefer to live?
00:13:43: It's always in the nineteenth century buildings.
00:13:46: no and then you can have either a doctor there or lawyer has his office here... You could live in it.
00:13:53: like so many different uses within these structures one of the best solutions we have within the cities.
00:14:02: Yeah, and that makes me think also about the fact that actually people do still love cities
00:14:08: because you don't find these kind of buildings in the rural area?
00:14:12: No but I can find many other things in the Rural Area.
00:14:15: You'll find really good stuff especially for example In Lyall The city center.
00:14:19: most of the existing buildings are more or less indestructible made from big stones For the walls And roofs too everything, it's all made of stone with big carpentry structures under these stone coverings.
00:14:34: But they're really good!
00:14:36: So if we understand you correctly Laïol is a place where there are very strong identity also?
00:14:42: Very strong identity
00:14:44: If we think about other architects.
00:14:46: I agree on the fact that many architects would probably try to express their identity through their own architecture And you deliberately wrote, You're doing it without full claw.
00:15:02: So why was that so important for you?
00:15:06: As I said before, It's not the only answer.
00:15:09: It is just one choice when also strategical choice... ...you never know whether that choice will work or not during a competition.
00:15:20: You always have to ask yourself how should we answer?
00:15:24: How could we win somehow?
00:15:26: because If you want to build something, we need to win these competitions.
00:15:30: And for our office, Betty-en-Fermute and me even for BAST, the issue of building public and social facilities is a big issue because we are small offices.
00:15:41: when we really try hard it's always balance between strategical needs somehow and wish to do something that we could then go for if we win.
00:15:52: so It's a mix those two opposite ways doing project.
00:15:57: There was another sentence you said that really stayed with us, there is no rule for genius.
00:16:04: Why
00:16:06: not?
00:16:06: I could make different answers to this question.
00:16:09: The first one would be the way the production system of today should stop or at least slow down.
00:16:18: This process is full of genius methods And it's based on this, even I would say.
00:16:25: That is why its very good to enhance the fact that most of things do not happen with a genius thought but just like working together and trying to solve problems.
00:16:35: Then there isn't something else.
00:16:37: The way these buildings were built To make a machine as building was an old idea.
00:16:42: Many architects, engineers thought about it.
00:16:46: Some did It some others just thought about But could not implement.
00:16:51: So we are just following one way of answering a series of questions as professionals.
00:16:57: And this specific way of asking the question is really also connected to local companies, and the company who's going to build the object you draw... You work with them on a daily basis and progressively make small changes in your design or patterns through the point where everybody can meet and that this becomes something concrete.
00:17:21: So there is no room for genius in this process, that's for sure!
00:17:28: Or maybe everybody is a genius you know?
00:17:29: Maybe the genius of diplomacy...
00:17:31: Yeah yeah.
00:17:32: so if we look ahead tell us about the project your currently working on.
00:17:38: I think We're speaking about an abandoned building That You are trying to reactivate together with NGOs Local Initiatives And The City itself.
00:17:47: What Are You Trying To Achieve?
00:17:50: Yes, you are talking now about something very precise.
00:17:52: It's the building where we try to host several NGOs in Toulouse who are facing the same lack of space.
00:18:00: We implement their cultural programs So it's more like visual art structures and NGO I mean which is the Maison de l'Architecture Maisons d'architectures our regional structures trying to implement cultural program around architecture or on France.
00:18:16: so for this project we are in the starting point, let's say of that project.
00:18:21: So nothing is done yet.
00:18:23: it's a pretty long way I think to reach something.
00:18:25: but We're now talking with the municipality of Toulouse To get an abandoned building That was built at the end of the sixties for the exhibition complex.
00:18:36: It's about two thousand square meters and The proposition what we do Is to enter into the building as it is right now so its end-of-the-sixties facility And then not insulated just concrete in glass, you know more or less.
00:18:51: And to improve it progressively being there already which is like we implement both architectural issues and our own programs and architectures at the same time with as much reused materials as possible.
00:19:05: that's the idea.
00:19:07: but now We are in Toulouse so imagine that political people they're concerned about.
00:19:15: When I said that, people in Lael are stupid.
00:19:18: That's not the point at all!
00:19:18: It is just they don't have to face... ...the same problems there you know?
00:19:22: Because their historical center is bigger than new extension of the city.
00:19:28: it a very different topic.
00:19:29: then what happening in Toulouse now where building like crazy everywhere without thinking about.. What its doing into
00:19:37: the whole city structure right now?
00:19:39: Yeah Of course.
00:19:41: So If the political people want to take it as a real subject, that could be very great initiative.
00:19:47: And they might find their interest there for sure... For to lose!
00:19:52: I think its'a very ambitious project and i also think that this city has been a little bit brave you know?
00:20:01: To commit on this..and trust in You That You're Going to Do A Good Thing.
00:20:08: Usually As far as l know It always needs someone who starts with this kind of project.
00:20:15: And if the people see that it works, then everybody is willing to follow!
00:20:21: Everybody's saying like oh yeah completely makes sense to build with used materials... ...it completely make sense to go into empty buildings that were built like fifty-sixty years ago.. ..It can look amazing even though we thought maybe before that it's kind of ugly, should be destroyed.
00:20:41: But then you have your vision again or the ideal... That can become reality!
00:20:48: Yeah and that is collective work completely eh?
00:20:51: It was carried by all people who are now in these NGOs And also as architects at Maison d'Architecture.
00:20:59: they try to make it a collective way even with an architectural professional structure which means no name just like one structure that will be created for this specific project.
00:21:10: Also to avoid the signature somehow, you know?
00:21:14: That doesn't mean that signature is always bad I don't say it in a specific situation.
00:21:21: It could really good work all together To join forces, intelligence...to create something Something
00:21:27: beautiful!
00:21:28: Yeah..that would interesting many people
00:21:31: we crossing our fingers and keeping an eye on.
00:21:35: maybe We cannot say now because maybe it will never happen.
00:21:39: Now we are reaching the time for politicians, the storytelling somehow they think is really interesting.
00:21:45: I think those NGOs are going to have a place.
00:21:48: this not their debate The Debate now...we go in classical way and then yeah you might follow It may be if we reach something next.
00:21:57: EU Miss Award?
00:21:58: I don't know.
00:21:58: Will stay curious!
00:22:00: That will be classical, maybe a little bit with wood or something.
00:22:04: Why not?
00:22:05: Or it goes to the direction we try to implement... It's long run but...
00:22:10: Visions need time!
00:22:11: Yes Time and lots of enthusiasm.
00:22:14: Absolutely that is actually perfect.
00:22:17: because this leads us into our concluding question.
00:22:21: I'll let you ask Natali Usually these are one my favourite ones But iIll Let You Ask.
00:22:30: To conclude, our podcast would like to ask one final personal question.
00:22:36: Going back today's theme, building can wait?
00:22:39: What is the last place you visited where you thought?
00:22:44: here
00:22:45: people made exactly the right decision not build something new ?
00:22:50: Yeah I'd say maybe the wine bar.
00:22:51: i usually go have a drink in Toulouse.
00:22:54: Ok that sounds very nice.
00:22:56: It didn't change for years, no?
00:22:58: For decades.
00:23:00: They took a shop.
00:23:01: it was a shop first.
00:23:02: when they entered there it was ten to twenty years ago and this shop was already somehow designed a little bit not too much.
00:23:09: you know just few things like some metal sheets on the back wall or these kind of stuff... ...they kept it and they transformed something because they are wine shops.
00:23:17: so we need some structures in order put their bottles.
00:23:21: Well!
00:23:22: This is pure space done without architect And it has a soul, and that's all.
00:23:28: That's enough I think!
00:23:30: I think having the soul is most important thing for architecture no matter if its done by architects or others.
00:23:37: you just like feel it then you feel thats reason why your going there on anon.
00:23:42: No?
00:23:43: Of course yes also because of people who go their but i think its connected.
00:23:48: So thank you so much for that's actually wonderful way to end our todays conversation, having a glass of wine together.
00:23:56: Thank you very much for your time and sharing your thoughts with us which was really interesting!
00:24:03: And thanks everyone for listening and stay tuned on our next JungTalks podcast the Architecture Podcast from Jung!